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| LEGO as Art | ||
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Moderators: SteveR, brentlymills, brickfrenzy, kepplah, ColourSchemer, jaydubya, Inquisitor General, Professor Whateverly
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| Imhotepidus |
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 Roy T Cook posts: 547 | Okay, for those of you sick of reading long-winded posts about aesthetics, stop reading now! .... Uh, are they all gone now? OK, good. Anyway, a while back Joe Meno asked me to write up an article based on the LEGO as art presentations I did at the last two Brickfests. I finally wrote something up. It is kind of quick and sketchy, given length constraints imposed by its eventual home (its already roughly 40% over Joe's suggested length). Anyway, hopefully a few of you will enjoy reading it, and have some constructive (or even not-so-constructive) criticism to share. The article is a Word document, and is on brickshelf here. It does not yet contain photos - I suspect many of you will be familiar with the works I reference, and if not I suspect you can find them quick enough. By the way, you will notice that there is a "insert list here" note on the first page. I was also hoping that people could let me know of anyone who has exhibited their work in an art setting (i.e. museums, coffehouses, etc.). Thanks Roy Truth is the cry of all but the game of a few. - Bishop George Berkeley | ||
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| SirBugge |
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The Hypotech-guy Niels Bugge posts: 2058 | Dunno if I'll have time to look at it, but it's not yet public, so perhaps you should drop us a deeplink to the actual word document? If you want suggestions, ask for it ...now, go and make the next one better | ||
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| Imhotepidus |
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| Roy T Cook posts: 547 | I can't give a deeplink - when I log in and click on the file, instead of giving me a deeplink it just downloads the paper to my hard drive. I uploaded the paper two days ago, so I don't know why it is not public yet. Roy Truth is the cry of all but the game of a few. - Bishop George Berkeley | ||
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| PCBCarlos |
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| Guest Anonymous Coward | Right-click -> copy link location Tim | ||
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| Imhotepidus |
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| Roy T Cook posts: 547 | PCBCarlos said ... Right-click -> copy link location Tim Ok, try: this. Roy PS: If this works, it should download the essay to your hard-drive when you click it, so don't do so it you don't want to download the thing. [ Edited Mon Mar 05 2007, 04:19PM ] Truth is the cry of all but the game of a few. - Bishop George Berkeley | ||
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| nnenn |
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| Guest Anonymous Coward | Bravo. Agreed: Critical analysis / theoretical framework (beginnings of context) are needed... no, absolutely essential, to advance Lego creation as art. This evaluation and discussion is right on-- and could probably be probed a little deeper. But your defining art seems to be a detour from the thrust of your paper and leaves you on shaky ground at best. Though you probably feel it necessary to advance later ideas, I might suggest minimizing statements regarding what the "consensus" on art is, seeing as there is none. Say, rather, that ..."a useful tool for discussing Lego MOCs as art would be..." etc. (Sorry, but you when begin discussing "what makes an artifact an artwork," a wall of contrary examples rises for each one, and I'm afraid you'd lose the academics right there.) And I dare add, space-themed creations seem to have greater opportunity for freedom of formal or conceptual expression than themes like town, castle/fantasy (which appears superficially to be limitless, ie. fantastic, but is in fact (ironically) steeped in stereotypes crystalized mostly by Tolkien) or train. An unexplored universe seems the ultimate fertile field ready for the imaginative; anything could be depicted, literally. BTW- Though there are battles waging from various genres to gain the glorious classification of "art," current conditions for actually achieving this are more favorable than ever; shoot, even graphic design can be seen at the MOMA (or motorcycles, for that matter.) | ||
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| Uch?jin |
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Fortuna Shipyards Alex posts: 33 | Awesome: I'm a St. Andrews grad! Nice to see someone else from there, here. The argument about lego being in the same position as film was 100 years ago is the exact same one that is often used in the argument for computer games as art. Its an interesting cross-over there, something that is regarded primarily as a "toy" attempting to position itself as something more. The two forms (games and LEGO) are also about the same age. In response to nnenn, Space is probably as steeped in stereotypes as castle, or town - For example, a ship must have engines, guns, windows, pilots, whereas in reality, if a ship had any of these things they wouldn't necessarily be recognisable as such to our eyes, yet builders almost always use these conventions, making space almost as stereotyped as Castle/fantasy. Whilst you’re right in saying that in space, almost anything could be depicted, there is no reason to confine such an approach to Space, and Space only. The entire field of lego building, without pigeonholing into genres, is a much more fertile ground for inspiration, and if someone was trying to create art with lego then I wouldn’t expect them to stay within any pre-conceived genre frameworks such as “Space”. For example; Town could be used very well to convey a message about modern society, but why not throw in some nuclear spaceships and a knight on horseback as metaphors for the conflicting impulses in society of advancement vs traditionalism? Whist this is a silly idea that I just came up with when writing this, a real artist (instead of myself, who I have to admit, has so far only ever used lego to make swoosh-y toys) could no doubt create something special by thinking outside the (LEGO) box. Sorry if that post is too long/irrelevant. [ Edited Sun Mar 11 2007, 06:07AM ] | ||
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| Imhotepidus |
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| Roy T Cook posts: 547 | Uch?jin said ... Awesome: I'm a St. Andrews grad! Nice to see someone else from there, here. The argument about lego being in the same position as film was 100 years ago is the exact same one that is often used in the argument for computer games as art. Its an interesting cross-over there, something that is regarded primarily as a "toy" attempting to position itself as something more. The two forms (games and LEGO) are also about the same age. In response to nnenn, Space is probably as steeped in stereotypes as castle, or town - For example, a ship must have engines, guns, windows, pilots, whereas in reality, if a ship had any of these things they wouldn't necessarily be recognisable as such to our eyes, yet builders almost always use these conventions, making space almost as stereotyped as Castle/fantasy. Whilst you’re right in saying that in space, almost anything could be depicted, there is no reason to confine such an approach to Space, and Space only. The entire field of lego building, without pigeonholing into genres, is a much more fertile ground for inspiration, and if someone was trying to create art with lego then I wouldn’t expect them to stay within any pre-conceived genre frameworks such as “Space”. For example; Town could be used very well to convey a message about modern society, but why not throw in some nuclear spaceships and a knight on horseback as metaphors for the conflicting impulses in society of advancement vs traditionalism? Whist this is a silly idea that I just came up with when writing this, a real artist (instead of myself, who I have to admit, has so far only ever used lego to make swoosh-y toys) could no doubt create something special by thinking outside the (LEGO) box. Two things: First, it is also worth pointing out that during the battle for the legitimacy of film as art, one of the issues had to do with the notion og the 'genre' film, and the prevalent idea that a film that fit within a genre was less artistic, since it needed to conform to the conventions of that genre. Nowadays, however, it is widely recognized that genre film can be great art, and that part of how this is acheived is by satisfying the genre conventions in unique or nonstandard ways in order to satisfy the requirements of the genre while still expressing a novel 'meaning', etc. Presumably, similar things can (and hopefully will) be said about film. Secondly, just to clarify - I am not from St Andrews. Born and bred in Virgina, USA. I did, however, do a four year post-doc there, and am now an associate research fellow of the same research centre that I previously worked for. So I still spend two to three weeks a year there. Roy Truth is the cry of all but the game of a few. - Bishop George Berkeley | ||
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| Blastov |
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Hot like Wasabi Lenny Hoffman posts: 1120 | Uch?jin said ... In response to nnenn, Space is probably as steeped in stereotypes as castle, or town - For example, a ship must have engines, guns, windows, pilots, whereas in reality, if a ship had any of these things they wouldn't necessarily be recognisable as such to our eyes, yet builders almost always use these conventions, making space almost as stereotyped as Castle/fantasy. In an effort to continue an academic discussion, I'd like to draw differences with you on this issue. Granted, I have not been involved in the Castle community for the last 6 months, and loosely following for the year before that, I would argue that the typical Castle creation is trying to recreate a stereotypical, idealized past. This is certainly true of my creations as well as other big names (Furman, Brink, and Pouchain). Everything is, more or less, working with the same basic shape (the tudor house, the castle) and re-working it, perfecting design details, improving realism, etc. While there is the same type of nostalgia-stereotype among some space builders (again myself, Giddens), there is also a sizable group that are more neophilic (Soren is a great example here, but there are many more). In fact, I would go further and say that new forms and shapes are a cherished part of the Space community, even in the creations by nostalgists like Chris. This love of new shapes and forms is not common in other theme communities, such as Castle or Trains. Specifically, I think your claim about "engines, guns, windows, pilots" is unfounded. Although these design elements are often used, they are not universal, and it is not uncommon to see creations that lack key elements in an effort to break new ground. A spaceship without engines or windows or guns is not at all unreasonable (I expect more than a few have been built, but I cannot find any at the moment). said ... Whilst you’re right in saying that in space, almost anything could be depicted, there is no reason to confine such an approach to Space, and Space only. The entire field of lego building, without pigeonholing into genres, is a much more fertile ground for inspiration, and if someone was trying to create art with lego then I wouldn’t expect them to stay within any pre-conceived genre frameworks such as “Space”. I think here we're making a difference between prescriptive discussion and descriptive discussion. There is no law or principle saying that Town, Train or Castle cannot achieve new shapes, or that creations must be pigeon-holed into genres. My personal favorite creations often cross genre boundaries (Jonesy is a great example - his work often breaks or simply confounds efforts to genre-ize). However, descriptively, Jonesy is typically productive on Classic-Space.com because the Space community is most accepting of new concepts as well as genre-breaking. "Space" as a term relates to several building genres, as well as to the community. Just to point out - I realize that I am not using the term "space" the same way nnenn did. My opinion is that often 'Space' building is more expansive because the space community is more accepting. said ... For example; Town could be used very well to convey a message about modern society, but why not throw in some nuclear spaceships and a knight on horseback as metaphors for the conflicting impulses in society of advancement vs traditionalism? Taking your suggestion literally, I imagine a city scape with a knight standing right in the middle just looking silly. More like when my kid sister invades the LEGO room than a serious attempt at a message. said ... Whist this is a silly idea that I just came up with when writing this, a real artist (instead of myself, who I have to admit, has so far only ever used lego to make swoosh-y toys) could no doubt create something special by thinking outside the (LEGO) box. No doubt. Just to re-iterate my point from above- the Space community is typically the one that is most accepting of genre-bending and genre-breaking concepts and styles. An anecdote that supports this claim: during the first year or so of Classic-castle.com's existence, there was a heated debate as to whether "Ninja" theme sets belong under the castle heading or not. The argument was that "Castle" implies European medieval castles, not including modern fortifications or non-European structures. A side question is how fantasy can a castle be before it ceases being a "castle." The meat of the discussion was whether Ninja belonged in the "LEGO Castle" forum or the "General LEGO" forum. Eventually, it was decided that Japanese castles and MOCs could be talked about in the main forum, but Ninja sets are not listed in the "Sets" area of the site. My point is that a discussion like this would not (has not so far) take place in CS.com. The definition of "space" is accepted as being very wide and accomodating in a way that "castle" has not been. -Lenny PS. For issues of humility vs. arrogance, I wanted to point out that I use myself as an example for ease (I know my own work) and to avoid pointing fingers at others that might be insulting (I don't insult myself), not because I think my work is the best representative of the example. [ Edited Tue Mar 13 2007, 02:01PM ] It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Material force can only be overthrown by material force; but, theory itself becomes a material force when it has seized the masses. -Karl Marx | ||
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| ColourSchemer |
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EndCapo Contributor Aaron M. Snearyposts: 2500 | I would like to emphasize a point Lenny touches on, but did not dwell on, and that is 'Community'. The 'theme' of Classic-Space, Classic-Castle, MechaHub, etc is really only a superficial starting point for why we come here. Kyle asked recently, during his traffic study why some people stay and some leave. I am convinced that it is the community we have developed. Some people fit in well, others not so much. Certainly the subject matter of our building has some effect, but I think there is a great deal more to it. I will admit, I visit Classic-Castle fairly regularly - to see the creations. But not to engage in philisophical discussions of ART, creativity, current events and their repercussions. I come here for that. Because I find other, like-minded individuals with similar interests here. And for an opposite example, I noticed that the debate and discussion on the upcoming new sets was but a few-day poof! here, but raged on at Classic-Castle for weeks, and starts up again periodically. Clearly that community is much more invested in and intrigued by LEGO sets than we are. Our general consensus was simply "does it have cool parts?" Theirs was "Ooh, two new factions! And new weapons! Is that dark blue? Who is that girl? etc...." Neither response is better than the other, it is just my way of illustrating the different group mind sets between the sites. And that's why Steampunk and Floating rocks find a welcome home here, because they fit our community. And why 'most' Star Wars and Halo mocs don't. It's the people, not the subject of the build. Aaron ...Conquering the world, one colour scheme at a time. All your endcap are belong to us. | ||
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| TJ |
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I'm just gonna roll on the floor for a bit Taylor Cheek posts: 362 | ColourSchemer said ... And that's why Steampunk and Floating rocks find a welcome home here, because they fit our community. And why 'most' Star Wars and Halo mocs don't. It's the people, not the subject of the build. In regards to it being about the people not the sudject, I agree. Most people who build Star Wars and Halo mocs are tightwads that think they're the best even though their creation suck and will never take any criticism seriously to try and improve. Now there are some exceptions to this including Chuck and Legohaulic. In the same sense, I hate to consider myself to be and artist even thought I like photography, sculpting(if that's what you would call lego), drawing, movies amd other artsy crap. The reason I hate to consider myself to be an artist is because, living in one of the art capitals of the world, I've seen and met artists and they've all been snotty, uptight, jerks and associating myself with someone like that would make me want to take a (insert sharp and/or dangerous item here) to my brain. Romans 10:9-10 | ||
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| Imhotepidus |
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| Roy T Cook posts: 547 | TJ said ... ColourSchemer said ... And that's why Steampunk and Floating rocks find a welcome home here, because they fit our community. And why 'most' Star Wars and Halo mocs don't. It's the people, not the subject of the build. In regards to it being about the people not the sudject, I agree. Most people who build Star Wars and Halo mocs are tightwads that think they're the best even though their creation suck and will never take any criticism seriously to try and improve. Now there are some exceptions to this including Chuck and Legohaulic. In the same sense, I hate to consider myself to be and artist even thought I like photography, sculpting(if that's what you would call lego), drawing, movies amd other artsy crap. The reason I hate to consider myself to be an artist is because, living in one of the art capitals of the world, I've seen and met artists and they've all been snotty, uptight, jerks and associating myself with someone like that would make me want to take a (insert sharp and/or dangerous item here) to my brain. First off, we should not go patting ourselves on the communal back too quick about our openness to alternate genres and such. There has been at least some strife in the past as to whether or not non-hard-sci-fi styles such as steampunk belong here, or whether they are as good as good old fashioned space-fighters and such. Nevertheless, I think that Lenny is for the most part right on the money. TJ brings up another good issue, however, which is the following: Is LEGO sculpture? I am not sure it is. There are two reasons for this: (1) There seems to be a type/token difference here. What I mean by this is the following: Imagine a granite sculpture, and then imagine that I somehow make a molecule-for-molecule identical copy of it. One of these (the first one) is a real artwork, the other is a mere forgery - and, as a result, the former one is more valuable (in an aesthetic sense) than the latter. LEGO 'sculptures', on the other hand, do not seem to work this way. If you make a brick-for-brick identical copy of my artwork, then you have not made a forgery, you have made a second instance of the artwork. In other words, MOCs function more like movies, novels, comics, and symphonies, insofar as there can be multiple copies (or performances) of the same artwork, and there need be no single, 'real' copy. (2) The methodology of LEGO building is different. LEGO blocks come in a relatively limited palette of discrete shapes and colors, and (most of us) artistically value only those works that utilize a combination of these elements in 'allowed' ways (i.e. no cutting, painting, etc.). A sculptor, however, when carving his block of granite, can remove the bits in as large or small chunks as he wishes, and he can remove pieces of any size that he wants. So traditional sculpture, at least, is not limited by a relatively small finite number of elements in the way that LEGO is. On related thing: In addition, traditional sculptors tend to produce their works by removing bits from a larger mass of material (say, when working with stone). LEGO builders, however, build up their works, instead of carving down to them (although this last bit might be making too much of traditional sculpture with stone, etc., since avant garde sculpture with found objects, as well as metal sculpture, often proceeds by building up from smaller pieces). Roy Truth is the cry of all but the game of a few. - Bishop George Berkeley | ||
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| JordanTN |
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Pronounced: Neevz Jordan Neves posts: 439 | I think that Lego bricks should be open to whatever use you might choose for them. Just like any other art medium, one can decide what they will use it for - to express (I hate that word. really, I do), to show a concept, or just to make something for no reason. I'm partial to not thinking too much about it as, really, it's just a plastic building toy that I go to as a hobby, to get away from stuff and just create. However, I'm all for anyone deciding that they want to make an "art" out of lego. (Sorry to sound redundant. I just wanted to chime in) [ Edited Tue Mar 13 2007, 08:59PM ] | ||
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| ColourSchemer |
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| EndCapo Contributor Aaron M. Snearyposts: 2500 | Imhotepidus said ... On related thing: In addition, traditional sculptors tend to produce their works by removing bits from a larger mass of material (say, when working with stone). LEGO builders, however, build up their works, instead of carving down to them (although this last bit might be making too much of traditional sculpture with stone, etc., since avant garde sculpture with found objects, as well as metal sculpture, often proceeds by building up from smaller pieces). Roy The Art Minor in me insists I explain that sculpture comprises two methods of creation: Additive and Subtractive. Stone Carving and Wood Cutting is subtractive Bronze casting, paper mache, and silver casting is additive. Pottery and clay sculpture is both. One might argue that because you have the choice, LEGO building is both additive and subtractive. My point is that the method of creating does not inherently define whether or not something is 'art' Aaron ...Conquering the world, one colour scheme at a time. All your endcap are belong to us. | ||
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| Felix |
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LEGO Ambassador Felix Greco posts: 268 | I think you've built your case quite well. As you've been discussing and questioning this for a couple of years now, it looks like you're building a nice thesis. I'll award you an honorary MA. 
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